I think that there's a missing piece here, and that's social mobility. For social mobility to exist, it would have to be possible for working-class people to become ruling-class, and generally that involves a stint in the loathed middle. But as soon as a working-class person starts to move toward the middle, to see Obama's promise of higher education for their children as an opportunity rather than a threat, they become that dreaded middle class, disdained by both high and low, described here as self-promotion-obsessed and lacking in empathy.
So it's seen as a positive here that "the people I know that are actually from ruling-class backgrounds, they like working-class people because they're more real [than the middle class]". But couldn't you also also frame it as, "ruling-class people like working class people who know their place" (because if they don't they are, in this framework, middle class by definition). And couldn't this dynamic undermine social mobility?
Such an interesting point! Right, the "ruling class people prefer working class people" comment hearkens to an upstairs/downstairs dynamic (or Downton Abbey). In these contexts, where class roles are much more strictly defined, perhaps there's the comfort of less ambiguity, but there's also NO social mobility. FWIW, I don't think Jensen "loathes" the middle class-- I see her as trying to rescue the working class from *being loathed by* the middle class...
"I never say that to working-class people. I say, “I'm a counselor.” So there's a leveling.
Not wanting another person to feel diminished.
Solidarity is a really powerful. The solidarity between us is way more important than any individual accomplishments."
This is a really positive framing of the exchange, and I'm not convinced. Is it necessarily kindness for the feelings of others on the part of the psychologist/counselor, or is it also fear of the attack that will come if she dares to acknowledge her job title? The same attack, perhaps, that she got for writing a $50 check. I don't know if I can see this as a system of mutual solidarity if it is enforced punitively. (Especially against women. I wonder if a male psychologist from a working-class background would feel the same degree of pressure to minimize his career.)
That's a really interesting observation. Could it be both? Both positive and self-protective-- wanting to maintain a feeling of solidarity, and also wanting to shield oneself from judgment and/or criticism?
That’s fair. I think it’s a combination of solidarity and fear of not belonging. And I agree that it’s true that as a woman, I feel a greater need to care for others (due to my socialization). But I have heard many once-working class men say the same kinds of things. For a better look at this from a man’s point of view, I highly recommend Jack Metzgar’s new book, Bridging the Class Divide (Cornell, 2022).
I so appreciate this distinction between ‘becoming’ and ‘belonging.’ It helps me understand my frustration with what seems like lack of ambition among working class family members and my oversupply of middle-class striver’s syndrome.
This interview resonated in all sorts of ways for me. If I might add a footnote to Barbara Jensen’s comment about the intelligence required for working-class jobs, it would be THE MIND AT WORK, by Mike Rose (Penguin, 2005). Mike was a professor of education from a working-class family who took a democratic joy in the intelligence of “regular” people. He wrote several fine books, but this one speaks directly to labor and a senses of self.
I was also struck by Barbara’s distinction between people who work with things and those who work with symbols. But I’m not sure that the world of work divides so simply. I’d like to add at least one more group of people who work with people: teachers, counselors, nurses, social workers, and all sorts of service workers. I bring this up because as someone who moved from a working-class family to a professional job (college writing teacher), it has been extremely important to me to see myself as not simply churning out books and articles (working wit symbols) but having an impact on students.
Joe- these are great points, thank you. And yes, we don't all just work with things or symbols!
And thanks for the recommendation of Mike Rose's work. I have to say, as a one-time waitress, I can say that that work was incredibly complex-- managing multiple dynamic situations at once, keeping track of constant changes, juggling people's personalities, anticipating needs, managing up, not to mention quickly calculating whether people gave you a decent tip or not. (I didn't last.)
I love Mike Rose’s book. Yes, some working class work involves a lot of intelligence, also the transition from industrial to digital work has changed things. But the class divide remains, certainly in terms of pay scale differences and status. For a more recent look at working class work, may I recommend my article: Post Traumatic Living; Precarious Labor and Learned Helplessness in The Routledge International Handbook on Working Class Studies (2022).
Thanks for your reply, Barbara! I'd love to read your article, but I recently retired and thus don't have access to a university library, and, well, it's published by Taylor & Francis, which is not exactly Open Access. (There are some ironies here.) Is there any chance you could (surreptitiously) send me a PDF? I'm at jdharris57@gmail.com. Thanks!
That's so interesting. I'm curious what you mean by "class traitor"! So curious which parts rang true.... and which if any didn't! Jensen refers to herself as a "border person"-- someone who doesn't feel she belongs in any class, but has a unique perspective on both...
I've always heard "class traitor" used to describe people who leave a working class background through education or some other means, but I like "border person" better! When Jensen describes writing a check to her father, that was deeply familiar, a sense that you're always accidentally offending your family of origin, and yet stumbling over unseen cultural barriers in your adopted class too. There's a lot of cultural navigating to be done, and people don't talk about it enough, so yay you!
Yes and yes! :) And I wonder if the offense comes from folks feeling looked down on, or if it's just a feeling of discomfort with something unfamiliar. Jensen talked about how many unseen barriers there are. Agree we really don't talk about it enough-- maybe because in the U.S. we like to protect our illusion of classlessness? This idea that "everyone is middle class" when in fact only half of us are...
The earliest post linked from the sidebar on his blog's home page is from July 2013.
Thankfully, the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine does have an archival copy. Yet one has to go back a ways within its snapshots to find it. (Choosing any of the more recent snapshots leads to a '404 Not Found' page on Michael Church's blog.)
Here's the link to one of the still-working archival snapshots (preserved in October 2015), provided by 'siderea':
I'm wondering if you've written about your you know scholarship or stories about inter-class friendship and financial solidarity. I'm a middle class person, and a lot of my friends are from working class or poor families, first to graduate college and grad school in their families. From knowing the struggles that they have that I don't (because my parents paid for my college, I got merit scholarships to grad school, my family supports me, not vice versa), it becomes a no-brainer to lend and give them money sometimes. (My friend can't make rent and I'm saving hundreds for retirement a month and go on vacation twice a year... uhhhh, duh.) I feel like there's such taboo about this in middle class and white culture, it's generally considered a BAD IDEA to lend your friends money, but it really hasn't negatively impacted our friendship in any way I can see. I'd love to hear more stories and thoughts about these relationships of financial solidarity!
Thanks for this thoughtful comment- yes it's a really under-discussed topic and would love to explore it further. I heard the poet Jean Valentine once say that Adrienne Rich freely gave her friends money when they needed it, believing "All friendship is socialism." (!) You have a kindred spirit!
I enjoyed reading this piece! I also want to say that adult friendships today are often built around consumerism - we establish and nurture connections over a cup of coffee, paying for an experience etc. The lifestyle people are able to afford is an important factor in making/maintaining cross-class friendships.
Such an interesting point!! Agree- it’s an overlooked piece of friendship. I’ll never forget talking to a friend who had spent a semester studying in Russia. She said there, a typical date was to go for a walk. Young people simply didn’t have money to do anything else.
It's been interesting since my college friends have moved away from the city where I live, my friend group has become increasingly full of people who have less wealth and income. And the way we hang out has correspondingly shifted... we pretty much always just go to each others' apartments to hang out, cook, or we go for walks or picnics. I think part of it has been getting older, too -- we don't want to drink or be out in loud places anymore.
I think that there's a missing piece here, and that's social mobility. For social mobility to exist, it would have to be possible for working-class people to become ruling-class, and generally that involves a stint in the loathed middle. But as soon as a working-class person starts to move toward the middle, to see Obama's promise of higher education for their children as an opportunity rather than a threat, they become that dreaded middle class, disdained by both high and low, described here as self-promotion-obsessed and lacking in empathy.
So it's seen as a positive here that "the people I know that are actually from ruling-class backgrounds, they like working-class people because they're more real [than the middle class]". But couldn't you also also frame it as, "ruling-class people like working class people who know their place" (because if they don't they are, in this framework, middle class by definition). And couldn't this dynamic undermine social mobility?
Such an interesting point! Right, the "ruling class people prefer working class people" comment hearkens to an upstairs/downstairs dynamic (or Downton Abbey). In these contexts, where class roles are much more strictly defined, perhaps there's the comfort of less ambiguity, but there's also NO social mobility. FWIW, I don't think Jensen "loathes" the middle class-- I see her as trying to rescue the working class from *being loathed by* the middle class...
"I never say that to working-class people. I say, “I'm a counselor.” So there's a leveling.
Not wanting another person to feel diminished.
Solidarity is a really powerful. The solidarity between us is way more important than any individual accomplishments."
This is a really positive framing of the exchange, and I'm not convinced. Is it necessarily kindness for the feelings of others on the part of the psychologist/counselor, or is it also fear of the attack that will come if she dares to acknowledge her job title? The same attack, perhaps, that she got for writing a $50 check. I don't know if I can see this as a system of mutual solidarity if it is enforced punitively. (Especially against women. I wonder if a male psychologist from a working-class background would feel the same degree of pressure to minimize his career.)
That's a really interesting observation. Could it be both? Both positive and self-protective-- wanting to maintain a feeling of solidarity, and also wanting to shield oneself from judgment and/or criticism?
That’s fair. I think it’s a combination of solidarity and fear of not belonging. And I agree that it’s true that as a woman, I feel a greater need to care for others (due to my socialization). But I have heard many once-working class men say the same kinds of things. For a better look at this from a man’s point of view, I highly recommend Jack Metzgar’s new book, Bridging the Class Divide (Cornell, 2022).
I so appreciate this distinction between ‘becoming’ and ‘belonging.’ It helps me understand my frustration with what seems like lack of ambition among working class family members and my oversupply of middle-class striver’s syndrome.
I'm so glad it provided some clarity!!
So great and thought-provoking. Thanks!
Thank you! So glad it provoked some thinking...
This interview resonated in all sorts of ways for me. If I might add a footnote to Barbara Jensen’s comment about the intelligence required for working-class jobs, it would be THE MIND AT WORK, by Mike Rose (Penguin, 2005). Mike was a professor of education from a working-class family who took a democratic joy in the intelligence of “regular” people. He wrote several fine books, but this one speaks directly to labor and a senses of self.
I was also struck by Barbara’s distinction between people who work with things and those who work with symbols. But I’m not sure that the world of work divides so simply. I’d like to add at least one more group of people who work with people: teachers, counselors, nurses, social workers, and all sorts of service workers. I bring this up because as someone who moved from a working-class family to a professional job (college writing teacher), it has been extremely important to me to see myself as not simply churning out books and articles (working wit symbols) but having an impact on students.
Joe- these are great points, thank you. And yes, we don't all just work with things or symbols!
And thanks for the recommendation of Mike Rose's work. I have to say, as a one-time waitress, I can say that that work was incredibly complex-- managing multiple dynamic situations at once, keeping track of constant changes, juggling people's personalities, anticipating needs, managing up, not to mention quickly calculating whether people gave you a decent tip or not. (I didn't last.)
I love Mike Rose’s book. Yes, some working class work involves a lot of intelligence, also the transition from industrial to digital work has changed things. But the class divide remains, certainly in terms of pay scale differences and status. For a more recent look at working class work, may I recommend my article: Post Traumatic Living; Precarious Labor and Learned Helplessness in The Routledge International Handbook on Working Class Studies (2022).
Thanks for your reply, Barbara! I'd love to read your article, but I recently retired and thus don't have access to a university library, and, well, it's published by Taylor & Francis, which is not exactly Open Access. (There are some ironies here.) Is there any chance you could (surreptitiously) send me a PDF? I'm at jdharris57@gmail.com. Thanks!
Sure, why not?
So much of this rings true to me, as a "class traitor." Thanks for having the conversation!
That's so interesting. I'm curious what you mean by "class traitor"! So curious which parts rang true.... and which if any didn't! Jensen refers to herself as a "border person"-- someone who doesn't feel she belongs in any class, but has a unique perspective on both...
I've always heard "class traitor" used to describe people who leave a working class background through education or some other means, but I like "border person" better! When Jensen describes writing a check to her father, that was deeply familiar, a sense that you're always accidentally offending your family of origin, and yet stumbling over unseen cultural barriers in your adopted class too. There's a lot of cultural navigating to be done, and people don't talk about it enough, so yay you!
Yes and yes! :) And I wonder if the offense comes from folks feeling looked down on, or if it's just a feeling of discomfort with something unfamiliar. Jensen talked about how many unseen barriers there are. Agree we really don't talk about it enough-- maybe because in the U.S. we like to protect our illusion of classlessness? This idea that "everyone is middle class" when in fact only half of us are...
I recommend my book: Reading Classes; On Culture and Classism in America (Cornell, 2012).
Somewhat related and quite entertaining - https://danco.substack.com/p/the-michael-scott-theory-of-social - "The Michael Scott Theory of Social Class"
That one in turn references Michael Church's three ladder social class system, but all the links I can find to that one are broken :(
Ha- will check it out.
Thanks, Dave, for sharing this! Am seeing some interesting riffs on Church's post in various places, including the Alex Danco post you shared.
Two more examples:
https://siderea.dreamwidth.org/1237182.html
https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/01/30/staying-classy/ (which reflects on and links to the former)
As for Michael Church's September 9, 2012 post itself (originally at http://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-3-ladder-system-of-social-class-in-the-u-s/), it may have fallen off the bottom edge of the archives on his site (michaelochurch.wordpress.com).
The earliest post linked from the sidebar on his blog's home page is from July 2013.
Thankfully, the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine does have an archival copy. Yet one has to go back a ways within its snapshots to find it. (Choosing any of the more recent snapshots leads to a '404 Not Found' page on Michael Church's blog.)
Here's the link to one of the still-working archival snapshots (preserved in October 2015), provided by 'siderea':
https://web.archive.org/web/20151006183427/https://michaelochurch.wordpress.com/2012/09/09/the-3-ladder-system-of-social-class-in-the-u-s/
Thanks, @aron. I'm looking forward to checking these out..
I'm wondering if you've written about your you know scholarship or stories about inter-class friendship and financial solidarity. I'm a middle class person, and a lot of my friends are from working class or poor families, first to graduate college and grad school in their families. From knowing the struggles that they have that I don't (because my parents paid for my college, I got merit scholarships to grad school, my family supports me, not vice versa), it becomes a no-brainer to lend and give them money sometimes. (My friend can't make rent and I'm saving hundreds for retirement a month and go on vacation twice a year... uhhhh, duh.) I feel like there's such taboo about this in middle class and white culture, it's generally considered a BAD IDEA to lend your friends money, but it really hasn't negatively impacted our friendship in any way I can see. I'd love to hear more stories and thoughts about these relationships of financial solidarity!
Thanks for this thoughtful comment- yes it's a really under-discussed topic and would love to explore it further. I heard the poet Jean Valentine once say that Adrienne Rich freely gave her friends money when they needed it, believing "All friendship is socialism." (!) You have a kindred spirit!
Love that! Do you know of any writing about it I could look into?
I enjoyed reading this piece! I also want to say that adult friendships today are often built around consumerism - we establish and nurture connections over a cup of coffee, paying for an experience etc. The lifestyle people are able to afford is an important factor in making/maintaining cross-class friendships.
Such an interesting point!! Agree- it’s an overlooked piece of friendship. I’ll never forget talking to a friend who had spent a semester studying in Russia. She said there, a typical date was to go for a walk. Young people simply didn’t have money to do anything else.
It's been interesting since my college friends have moved away from the city where I live, my friend group has become increasingly full of people who have less wealth and income. And the way we hang out has correspondingly shifted... we pretty much always just go to each others' apartments to hang out, cook, or we go for walks or picnics. I think part of it has been getting older, too -- we don't want to drink or be out in loud places anymore.